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Workin 4 Certain
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/8/2011 11:54PM - in reply to off course OscarReply | Return to Index | Report Post

off course Oscar wrote:

Not that you were replying or agreeing with me Scott, but I concur that we are on the same page. He's in trouble and whatever he won will most likely be given back, trust me on that part of it. A whole can a worms has now been opened up and those who were cheated out of money have a case worth looking at. Wait for it everybody.

1:06 plus at the Crim 2 years in a row and then suddenly an annouced goal of a sub 60:00, ends up with a sub 57 and claims of a wrong turn. Why not DNF and avoid the confusion? It doesn't add up.

A 2:51 marathon at age 49 averaging around 6:27 pace. Second half marathon splits averaging 6:11 (1:22 half pace) but runs an open half in a sub 1:29 just over 4 months later in 6:44 pace.

How's this folks? He dropped 29 seconds "per mile" from one Gasparilla 15k to the next (09'-10'). He ran 54:05 in February of 2010. That is equal to something close to a sub 2:44 marathon and a 58:30 10 mile race.

If he did that 54:05 15k and marathons were his bread and butter, one would think he would have more than one sub 2:50 under his belt. So he's gotten more speed as he's aged but lost endurance? Yeah, that makes sense.

Sorry folks, but when you do this you lose all credibility and the burden of proof is now shifted on him, as in prove you did these races in full versus the race directors having to prove that he didn't.

Then you involve a charity and raising money for a cause.

Sorry, but I believe the RD's who have disqualified him and crazy splits that just don't add up.


How much $$$, if any, do you believe he wrongfully took? How much $$$, if any, can you PROVE he wrongfully took?
off course Oscar
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:11AM - in reply to Workin 4 CertainReply | Return to Index | Report Post
No problem responding to that.

The amount of income, prize money, is totally irrelevant.

It is NOT for me to prove. If I were representing the RD's and/or those runners who were alledgedly cheated out of a expected/declared monetary amount(in writing) for their finishing place, I would call it a field day.

My excuse for not showing up on video would be what?

If there is any evidence of cheating and not showing up at certain points along the course, there will then be reasonable doubt and the burden of proof now lays on his shoulders.

If someone was unjustfully cheated out of money that was rightfully theirs (earned by and followed by the rules) they will receive it.

It is the RD's discretion, they set the rules and he signed the entry form (always read the fine print) as did the other runners.

Any race that involved prize money that he won is now in play. Simply put, it's called credibility friend.

If you were disqualified from the number of races that I've read he has been, how much credibility would you have.

I can't make it any clearer, but respectfully that's the best I can do.
Workin 4 Certain
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:13AM - in reply to off course OscarReply | Return to Index | Report Post

off course Oscar wrote:



It is the RD's discretion, they set the rules and he signed the entry form (always read the fine print) as did the other runners.



The RDs at Vermont City and Providence were unwilling to disqualify him despite the evidence.

I believe he won $300 at Rochester. not sure if that performance was legit or not
Workin 4 Certain
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:17AM - in reply to off course OscarReply | Return to Index | Report Post
i cant agree more about the credibility part of it, but the RDs wont DQ him without proof


remember what the Missoula guy said (from 2nd Litton thread):
"Given all of the work I did, it is my opinion that all of this speculation about his splits for various segments of the marathon courses do not constitute very strong evidence for cheating.

Taken together, however, his gun/chip differential, his weird splits, his changing clothes and a few other things make one very suspicious, but again, they aren't a slam dunk. For this reason, the race directors that I contacted at Providence and Vermont City were unwilling to disqualify Litton. The race director at Delaware WAS willing to disqualify him because in addition to the above items and a complete lack of race course photos, Litton had literally changed clothes and shoes during the race and done a few other suspicious things.

For me, the most important piece of real evidence that he has cheated in so many marathons is that in starting at the back of the pack, two to six minutes behind the runners on the front line, he literally has to pass almost everyone to finish near the front. This leads to the following: no evidence is stronger than the fact that none of the runners that finish near to Kippy but behind him recall seeing him on the course - NONE." - http://kiplitton.blogspot.com/2011/01/discussion-on-disqualifications.html
off course Oscar
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:20AM - in reply to Workin 4 CertainReply | Return to Index | Report Post
And I agree, it's their discretion. As this opens up more, runners who lost out will have an arguement. To be blunt, I've seen senarios like this happen before. Sometimes "Karma is King" and righteousness prevails. Wait for it.
Workin 4 Certain
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:31AM - in reply to off course OscarReply | Return to Index | Report Post
Cool. Where are the results for Kip at these CRIM races? I'm not from Michigan so I dont know CRIM, and the only one I can find of Kip's is the 2008 one:
16 190 614 Kip Litton Clarkston 47 31:29 1:09:59 1:06:18 6:38

Where's the 2009 one?
And the 2010 one he was injured, right?
Workin 4 Certain
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:45AM - in reply to off course OscarReply | Return to Index | Report Post

off course Oscar wrote:

And I agree, it's their discretion. As this opens up more, runners who lost out will have an arguement. To be blunt, I've seen senarios like this happen before. Sometimes "Karma is King" and righteousness prevails. Wait for it.


Most of the runners who lost out may not be aware they did...is someone going to contact them?
oldxcdude
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 4:25AM - in reply to Workin 4 CertainReply | Return to Index | Report Post
The real question is: once Kip turns 50 will he be going after age group world records? You never know - he is getting faster with the years!
make it clear maybe lets see
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 4:51AM - in reply to oldxcdudeReply | Return to Index | Report Post
If he started 4 minutes back, he didn't pass the guys that he finsihed ahead of according to gun time in the race. That's why they didn't see him.

(Hypothetical situation)

Kip Litton 2:55.00
John Doe 2:55.10

John Doe never saw Litton during the race because Litton finished 4 minutes after John Doe. But when they factor in the chip time Litton is ahead of him on the results. You'd have to ask Jane Doe who had a finishing time of 2:59 if SHE saw Litton during the race.
Lip Kitten
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 5:45AM - in reply to oldxcdudeReply | Return to Index | Report Post
I have a feeling Kip has retired from the sport.
long Sox
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 7:02AM - in reply to Workin 4 CertainReply | Return to Index | Report Post

Workin 4 Certain wrote:

The RDs at Vermont City and Providence were unwilling to disqualify him despite the evidence.

I believe he won $300 at Rochester. not sure if that performance was legit or not


2010 Rochester Marathon - race info here:
http://www.rochestermarathon.com/race.asp

First master takes $300.

If you follow the links to the 2010 results page, the first two masters are:

16 302 Kip Litton M 12 Masters Male 49 Davison, MI 0:34 2:57:25 2:57:59 06:48
17 314 Eric J Maki M 13 Masters Male 48 Cortland, NY 0:02 2:58:10 2:58:12 06:48

Notice that Kip has a both a better net time and gun time, so somewhere on the course he would have had to have passed Eric Maki (the second master). But it can't been at the beginning of the course as Kip started a little way behind the gun - although only 34 seconds this time.

Here are the photos for Kip and Mr Maki:
http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_event.asp?EVENTID=61901&PWD=&BIB=302
http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_event.asp?EVENTID=61901&PWD=&BIB=314

Now if we ignore the generic photos of places like the start line and medals and the ones where it looks like another runner has been identified as bib 302, Kip has only half the number of photos as Mr Maki.

The first time in the race that we see a photo of Kip is around the area of the Fort Street bridge where he passes runner #2214 - a lady who was running in the half marathon.

More detail of the area:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Rochester,+NY,+United+States&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.188298,83.144531&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Rochester,+Monroe,+New+York&ll=43.141499,-77.61398&spn=0.001133,0.002537&t=h&z=19

The runners come from the south-west, along the Genesee Riverway Trail, go under the Fort Street bridge heading north-east, then turn right where the picture was taken of Kip passing the lady - runner 2214 - before they turn right again and go over the Fort Street Bridge.

This is the only place we see photos of Kip other than the finish area.

The official Rochester Marathon course map is here (click the map for PDF download with more detail):
http://www.rochestermarathon.com/couse.asp

Now in the other thread, someone did an search for runner 2214 and determined at her likely pace and the distance to the finish line, Kip must have finished that race in about 8:30 mile pace - perhaps slower.

He certainly doesn't look to be running very fast in the finish straight.

So Kip must have made up a lot of time in the middle of the race to pass Mr Maki and record a 2:57:25 net time, but unfortunately there are no photos of him in the mid part of the course - while there are plenty for Mr Maki in several different places. Perhaps Kip was running too fast for the camera autofocus to handle, or perhaps there is another explanation.
Clarkston Kent
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 8:45AM - in reply to Workin 4 CertainReply | Return to Index | Report Post

Workin 4 Certain wrote:

Cool. Where are the results for Kip at these CRIM races? I'm not from Michigan so I dont know CRIM, and the only one I can find of Kip's is the 2008 one:
16 190 614 Kip Litton Clarkston 47 31:29 1:09:59 1:06:18 6:38

Where's the 2009 one?
And the 2010 one he was injured, right?


Kip claimed injury in the '09 Crim race, after the 5 mile point. There are 3 different roads he could've taken to leave the course & turn back toward the finish after the 5 mile split mat. He took one of them. For some reason, known only to cheats like him, he went down the finishing straight and crossed the finish line - despite the fact he knew he'd already quit the race. Later, he found the scoring folks and had his name & time removed from results. Why he did this is unknown. However, his time had already been released and some sources captured it including athlinks. His name & time did not appear in official results that appeared the next day.
scotth
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 11:49AM - in reply to off course OscarReply | Return to Index | Report Post

off course Oscar wrote:

Not that you were replying or agreeing with me Scott, but I concur that we are on the same page.


We aren't on the same page. I've reached the end of the book.
really guys
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:16PM - in reply to scotthReply | Return to Index | Report Post
This guy is cheating his way to 17 minute 5k's and 3 hour marathons. Who freaking cares? Why is there a 175 post thread on letsrun.com about this?

At least these posts are all on one thread now instead of the multiple Kip Litton posts that have been peppering this board for weeks. He's an old slow fat cheater - WHO CARES??
mp coach
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:41PM - in reply to really guysReply | Return to Index | Report Post
To master age group runners there is alot of care. When you get in your 40s-50s its a new world of running. There is prize money and awards and recognition that goes along way. What if you were 43 years old and were in line to win 500 dollars but someone who cheated you out of it gets it. You would be pretty pissed off like the rest of us who are talking about it.

This is getting his name out there as a cheater. And if someone is running a race and sees that this guy is in it. I would make sure to tell the race director that this guy has done so and so and make sure he doesnt cheat anyone else off of money or awards.
Francis H
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:53PM - in reply to really guysReply | Return to Index | Report Post
Obviously, many people care about someone cheating without being held accountable. The way this thread is lighting up is proof of that.
jerrry
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:56PM - in reply to mp coachReply | Return to Index | Report Post
Solution: to both protect the innocent runner wrongfully accused and the race directors/other racers.

is to have race director put a GPS (real time) monitor of some type on any runner who has been previously DQ'ed or involved suspcious activity.

If i were being accused i would want it to prove my innoence and if i were wanting to bust a cheater - this would be a pretty good way to do it.

A real cheater is never going to show up to a race with this type of technology in use and a real honest person is going to want to prove their times are legit.


Or perhaps I could just throw out this challange to Kip: if you want to prove your honesty and innocence (since you are raising money for charity) why not volunteer to wear one to put an end to all this and restore you "good" name.
Kevin52
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 12:56PM - in reply to really guysReply | Return to Index | Report Post

really guys wrote:

This guy is cheating his way to 17 minute 5k's and 3 hour marathons. Who freaking cares? Why is there a 175 post thread on letsrun.com about this?

At least these posts are all on one thread now instead of the multiple Kip Litton posts that have been peppering this board for weeks. He's an old slow fat cheater - WHO CARES??


I do.

He's credited with finishing ahead of me in 3 marathons, 2 of them he was in my AG. Or did he?

I trained hard, paid my money and raced fair and square. As did most others. This is a competition to see who is faster, That's why they call it a race.
Kevin52
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 1:25PM - in reply to Kevin52Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

really guys wrote:

This guy is cheating his way to 17 minute 5k's and 3 hour marathons. Who freaking cares? Why is there a 175 post thread on letsrun.com about this?

At least these posts are all on one thread now instead of the multiple Kip Litton posts that have been peppering this board for weeks. He's an old slow fat cheater - WHO CARES??




Kevin52 wrote:
I do.

He's credited with finishing ahead of me in 3 marathons, 2 of them he was in my AG. Or did he?

I trained hard, paid my money and raced fair and square. As did most others. This is a competition to see who is faster, That's why they call it a race.


Correction
He's credited with finishing ahead of me in 4 marathons, 3 of them he was in my AG.

I am not that fast, but looking at Kip's numbers and history, I seriously doubt that he is much faster than me.
sldkfjasdiu
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 1/9/2011 1:37PM - in reply to Kevin52Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I propose a Kevin52 vs. Kip match race at a distance of 1/2 marathon. Each man chips in $10K - winner takes all.
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